Grizelda's comments

When a Therapist Fails to Diagnose Narcissistic Personality Disorder in the Extended Family - Blog Entry

16 Nov 2009 11:13 PM

This is really a great blog, Beth. This happened to me. The psychologist got very snippy with me and told me I had no business "labeling" anyone. I even brought in a list of books and even academic journal articles (which I wouldn't recommend, lol) to support my "case" that I believed my mother had NPD. Anyway, that made her (the therapist) even more dismissive of me, and I got out of there.

I'm so glad that NPD is getting more exposure - it will help the situation for so many victims. And I'm doubly glad that there are resources like this one on the 'net. They're literally life-savers!

Narcissism-Symptoms and Treatment (1) - Blog Entry

15 Oct 2009 12:28 AM

So sorry for you, Turouge. That's a real mess. I think I would find an attorney to talk to - I'm not sure what kind - a divorce attorney? If you've got proof you paid him, it looks like you could sue to get your money back (or he could be forced to put your name on the house?) Best of luck!

Escaping the Trap of the Narcissistic Mother - Blog Entry

15 Oct 2009 12:09 AM

I hope you have a good therapist and you are making progress on these issues - they're so tough, but unlike NPD, they are very treatable!

I was diagnosed with Avoidant Personality Disorder and Generalized Anxiety Disorder, and I was asked to start Cognitive Behavior Adjustment. (I got some books from Amazon to try treat myself because I don't have the money for longterm therapy.) But the main thing is, there are VERY successful programs for social phobia type issues, if that's what you have, and I just know you could overcome much of the damage caused by your abuse. Take care and please keep us updated. GOOD LUCK!

The Aging Narcissistic Parent (2) - Blog Entry

14 Oct 2009 11:45 PM

Oh Sadme - I haven't checked here in ages and hadn't seen your post. Beth has had some computer problems, and hopefully they'll be sorted and she can help you.

In the meantime, I can really identify with your situation (or I could a few months ago - I've been No Contact since February.) I'm 54, overweight too, struggling with low energy and toxic levels of anxiety - I have a disabled son (visually impaired) who lives at home and I'm homeschooling him (he's 17 - and we're doing 11th grade work.) The stress of working with and worrying ABOUT him, combined with my mother's ever increasing demands, even though she's in an assisted living, was keeping me furious all the time. I'd lie in bed and tell her off, over and over, but never found the courage to do it to her face.

I did find the courage to write her a letter with a set of "demands" -- I told her what I would do for her (in a list) and even said that if she had a special request, she should make it in a letter or leave a message on my phone, but I HAD to have 24 hours to think about it - and if I thought she could get it down some other way, or if it was frivolous, I was going to start saying No.

I know how IMPOSSIBLE this situation can be -- but is it possible to explain to her what [reasonable] things you're willing to do for her -- what things you want her to get OTHER people to do for her, including your sisters. And if they won't do their assigned parts, then it shouldn't be your job to jump in and do their part. Oh it's just such a mess.

I think I've heard that experts can be hired to come in and organize a delegation of duties among all an elder's children and other relatives, so that it's meted out fairly - a 3rd party. If you can afford an elder-care specialist, is there a 3rd party friend or cousin who might intervene, so you don't have to be the bad-guy all by yourself?

I'm so worried about you. Is there any way you can just move and set up your life far away, where she can't over-use or abuse you. You could visit a few times a year, and while there, do whatever you were WILLING to do to help, but say, sorry, that's it - the rest would be up to your sibling(s) or to social workers. Does she have enough money for assisted living or nursing home--are all the sibs in a financial position to pitch in? If it's a true "nursing hom", Medicaid will often pay the whole bill unless there are significant assets- and even they can be transferred to someone else's name - and then, in a few years, those transferred assets won't count anymore.

Well, I'm rambling and brainstorming, and you probably know already. I do hope you don't live in the same house with her. That's just untenable - it would be better to have one room in a rooming house than to live in the same house/apt with an NPD mom. Please take care of Yourself!! AND BEST OF LUCK. Also, please come back and let us know how things are going for you! We've all been where you are and we care!

How a Narcissist Thinks - Blog Entry

09 Oct 2009 11:24 PM

oops - I put my post in the "Community Tags" area and really messed up. I'll try again.

I don't understand this either. I guess if I knew WHY some babies can't individuate from their moms I might comprehend it better - but sometimes I tend to think it's just biological. A psychopath's child, raised by normal parents, is more likely to become a psychopath (and I think NPD maybe a milder variant of psychopathy.)

My experience with N's suggests that their mothers over-idealize them, coddle them, don't let them have to face the consequences of their bad behavior -- the moms give in to the child's tantrums and so the child learns he's in charge of his own mother, and so, he also learns that he can use aggression, tantrums, bullying, etc., to control everybody and to get whatever he wants.

But though it's hard for me to ponder, I do accept that Beth is right - it's just too abstract for me, and not as intuitive as the "spoiled child" theory. Or maybe it IS a form of the spoiled child theory. In any case, I'm delighted that so much of this nightmare has been explained by therapists like Beth who are caring enough to share with us, so we finally have a chance to figure it out and break free!

Dealing with a Narcissistic Mother - Blog Entry

07 Sep 2009 11:25 PM

I just realized that Kathy's book, as wonderful as it is, can't really help you if you must stay in the relationship with your mother - and Anna Valerious "Narcissists Suck" has much of Kathy's content in the chapters of her blog -- the message of both is you must get yourself (and your family) free.

The last part of Susan Forward's book "Toxic Parents" has some excellent advice on setting limits -- and including shipping, it's only $6 from amazon.com. Some of her advice, starting on p. 320:

1 - Tell your mother that she doesn't have the right to be cruel or belittling and if she starts, you will stop it;

2 - Tell her you know this will upset her, but you are going to start saying "No" a lot more than you have in the past.

This was advice to a person with specific problems, which may not apply to you, but I've read of others who've been able to toughen up and diminish the harsh behavior -- of course, I was never able to do that, but it HAS been done. Take care!

Dealing with a Narcissistic Mother - Blog Entry

07 Sep 2009 11:07 PM

Your situation sounds so incredibly difficult - my heart goes out to you. From what I've read here and elsewhere, people with NPD get WORSE as they get older. However, and I believe it was Beth who said this, the effect on the grandchildren is rarely as bad as it is on their actual children. They're once-removed from the nightmare - PLUS you have the good fortune of knowing about NPD and you can learn so much about it online and in books.

But I hate to belittle the seriousness of your situation by even using the words "good fortune." Your husband's head injury -- is it so severe that you must depend on your mother financially or materially? If not, it might be best to cut ties, especially as you say she's causing problems with your children. If you can't do that - as your children get older you can try to explain to them about NPD so they won't blame themselves, but in the mean time, oh dear. There are many things to try - but I don't know of an easy answer.

My "plan" (before my mother got so upset at my setting limits and forced NC on me by her mega-tantrum) -- anyway my plan was to keep a notebook in my hand (or pocket) and write down every cruel thing she said and did, in front of her, in order to (1) calm myself down, and (2) hopefully embarrass or annoy her into behaving better towards me and my family. However, if your mother is physically violent, I think you just have to do more and defend yourself and your family.

If you need to vent, maybe returning here and checking out other message boards could help? I find reading others' stories to be incredibly strengthening, and I found Kathy Krajco's book to really bolster my courage (and make clear how horrid this disorder is and the damage it does to anyone close.) Best of luck to you!!

Dealing with a Narcissistic Mother - Blog Entry

18 Aug 2009 07:45 PM

Well, you know I always have something to say, despite my dearth of qualifications...

I "believe" I see a pattern in several I've known who I believe have NPD. In my own mother's case, she completely dominated her own mother. She controlled her - told her what to do, even had her change her will to disinherit 3 of her children because my mother was spiteful and jealous of them. If my grandmother didn't kowtow quickly enough, my mother would raise her voice and get forceful - just as she does with me. Like a little girl in a grocery store throwing a tantrum when mommy won't let her have a candybar. My grandma always gave her the candy to shut her up.

I know a woman who has an NPD son (well, in MY opinion he is) and I've watched her w/her 5 kids for many years. She tries to be pushy and gives them lots of orders, even stupid pointless stuff, but then, she often lets them lie to her and wriggle out of things by whining long enough and out-lasting or out-arguing her. Instead of making simple reasonable demands and STICKING BY THEM, she overdoes the micro-managing and is constantly arguing with them over trifles, but frequently doesn't "follow up" - it's ridiculous and they don't take her seriously. Neither would I, in their shoes, because she's childish, too demanding, and doesn't show any self-discipline herSELF, so I can see why they don't think she should demand it of them.

Another mother of a playground "bully" (pretty sure it was NPD) that I knew couldn't stand to see her child lose in ANY WAY and would ignore his cruel vicious behavior to other kids -- yet if any kid so much as looked at him the wrong way, she would throw a fit about it. In fact, I've known two children "bullies" who had mothers like that - who would NEVER admit their child had ever done anything wrong but were quick to blame other kids.

I guess that's about the extent of my observations - except I read that Peter Sellers' mother over-idealized and coddled him, and that as a result, Peter had NPD as an adult.

Oh, and a lady I knew said her mother-in-law was vicious because her MIL's father was vicious. She said what happens when there's an abusive, cruel parent -- the kids go either of two ways -- they become vicious themselves -- or they become wimpy skiddish and anxiety-ridden. That's the only personal experience I've got with the "abuse in childhood can lead to NPD" theory, that Sam Vaknin and many others suggest, but I've never quite bought into. My own personal experience is that when you're abused and objectified, it beats you down and robs you of self-esteem (e.g., makes you a scared little wimp, like me.)

I doubt I've helped you at all -- but I too wish I had had a handle on all this when my kids were little. Neither one of mine is an NPD but I think they worry WAY too much because I'm so neurotic and I managed to inculcate that into them (if that's the right word) -- and I'm really sorry about that.

Dealing with a Narcissistic Mother - Blog Entry

16 Aug 2009 07:55 PM

Oh Cremix - so sorry for your situation. One great thing: you're so young - many of us stumbled around not knowing what the HELL was going on for literally decades! Well I did, anyway. I wasted years thinking it was my wimpiness and worthlessness that was the problem instead of her personality disorder. I hope you can bolster your courage and your belief in YOURSELF by using the knowledge that your mother's insidious disorder has caused your problems - and you have the power to stop it!

I understand the feeling of envying others' excellent families - but envy is one of the main things that destroys people with NPD! Finding a way to let that go will make your life so much better. When I first read about Buddhism, it was a wonderful thing for me to hear about the First Noble Truth or whatever it's called -- life is suffering. Everybody suffers, one way or another, sooner or later. Maybe not from an N-mom, but from illness, loss, heartbreak, misfortunes of all sorts. It's just the human condition. You can either keep struggling and railing against it (and increase your suffering) or reach an 'acceptance' that this is one of your particular sufferings and the best thing you can do is accept it and do what you can to remedy it or move on. Sadly, I think with NPD, there's no remedy other than moving on. I wish you all the best! It sounds like you have SO much going for you!!

I'm glad I came back to check this site and saw your post -- I was reading on another board and found a reference to this study that's linked a brain problem with BPD. Not exactly the same as NPD but this author says that those with BPD have unstable relationships and "fly into rages inappropriately, or become depressed and cannot trust the actions and motives of other people", so it certainly sounds like BPD's have some things in common with NPD's. Here's a link to the article:

http://esciencenews.com/articles/2008/08/07/a.new.light.brains.people.with.borderline.personality.disorder

Mercy, you'd think I'd taken this thread over! Sorry to go on and on, but I'm obviously quite obsessed with this subject and feel I have to keep working on understanding it. Take care, everybody, and good luck!

Dealing with a Narcissistic Mother - Blog Entry

16 Aug 2009 04:50 PM

Oh my goodness, Bearwithme - you reminded me of yet another probably-N-related thing. When I was 12, I started getting hives all over my body - and this happened a lot (I had to keep Benadryl with me at all times.) Interesting how I didn't have that problem anymore after I left home for good at 17.

But truly, I can't imagine what you're going through with a 2 year old. My kids are nearly grown, so I don't really have the worry that I'm depriving them of grandma and vice versa. And I can so relate to your feelings that you aren't sure you can keep NC.

I'm not sure I can either - but I've been lucky that my mother reacted with such RAGE (as usual) when I tried to set rules/limits. She basically disowned me, which I can now use as my "excuse" when I'm feeling guilty. Which is often - I guess it's why I'm here! I spend at least an hour a day reading N stories online, and I don't know when this pervasive uneasiness will let up.

Well, it HAS let up. My nightmares concerning her have stopped! I've been NC since January (except for a couple letters in February.) Unfortunately, my N-mom lives in my town; when Thanksgiving comes I don't know what I'll do, let alone Christmas; and if something happens to her in her Assisted Living place, and they contact me (or try), well, I imagine I'll panic and Lord knows what I'll do.

Gee, I sure haven't given you much comfort! But it does help me to keep REPEATEDLY reminding myself how incredibly lucky I am to live in an age with this mess has been clearly identified - with advice books lining my bookshelves as we speak!! - and all of you fellow sufferers to interact with -- we really do have a lot of resources from brave souls like Beth and Anna Valerious and Kathy Krajco et al. That's such an amazing GIFT and stroke of good fortune for us!

Now if I can just process all that and accept my lot in life, which is learning to live with the sorrow and anger - and yes, even the guilt and fear about NC. My mother has NPD. It just is what it is. It'll never be made "right" or comfortable or any of those things that many take for granted with their parents.

Oh, and yes - it is ASTOUNDING that these N's behave so similarly. It reminds me of Asperger's, which I think they now know is a clear difference in the brain chemistry. My mom always said her doctors complimented her extremely low heart rate - I read somewhere that psychopaths have low heart rates. Part of me believes that Narcissism has a LOT in common with Psychopathy and Antisocial Personality Disorder - it may even be a milder form of it (where they're still concerned with what other people think of them.) I think many NPDs are sadistic like APDs - hurting us makes them feel powerful and superior, and they love it.

Well, I'm rambling - but please don't beat yourself up over this! It can't be helped and it's NOT YOUR FAULT - it may not even be your mom's fault if it's faulty brain "wiring" - but that doesn't mean you should subject yourself or your precious daughter and hubby to the dysfunction and pain. Anna Valerious says there's ALWAYS "pain and chaos" if you have any contact at all with an N. Period.

A dear friend of mine said her own mother was bullied by her narcissistic grandmother and it broke her heart -- she and her sisters suffered just by WATCHING their mother suffer at the hands of a bully. So you're NOT being selfish by cutting off contact - Kathy Krajco emphasized that you MUST love yourself enough to protect yourself - otherwise, you're in no shape to provide love and comfort to the people in your lives who are capable of loving you back. And that would be the biggest tragedy of all!