Grizelda's comments

Dealing with a Narcissistic Mother - Blog Entry

11 May 2009 11:43 AM

Thanks so much, WhatisNormal! I think I've at least calmed down to the point that I can take more time to figure out what to do. It's ridiculous to feel so terrified and put on the spot - but I realize ALL that is coming from ME - I have the right to think about what to do and take my time. It's probably the first step to conquer in getting out from under someone else's control. Mercy. I've forgotten my own supposedly new credo -- Guilt is better than Rage (or Terror.)

What a lovely day for you - that's wonderful! It sounds like you've reached the right balance with your NM, without guilt or confusion. I knew when my mother said she was moving to live in my city that it would be IMPOSSIBLE. I spent hours on the 'net, looking up ways to change my name and places to run off to, lol. I knew I wouldn't - I knew I couldn't! My family's here - I've got great friends - but as Anna Valerious said, any contact = pain and chaos in your life. Still, the contact before was so intermittent, I usually felt safe. Now, never. I have trouble with the guilt - and thus, the panic and the possible letter and an attempt at boundaries, that I never got to try because she threw the hissy fit and wild efforts to control things the last time I asked.

So yeah, I'm pretty dense to think anything good could come out of trying again. Anyway, hopefully I won't keep hogging this forum with my panic of the day, sheesh...

It was lovely to hear about your GREAT relationship with your MIL! It just seems such common sense -- even for a 6 year old!! -- to realize that if you're just nice to people instead of worrying about power and winning and all that -- life works out great. It's the simplest thing in the world to figure out, isn't it?? I guess I'll never really understand how this comes about and continues in anyone's life -- this fake childish adversarial life-destructive state of being.

And the floodgates are pretty astonishing, Psych2B. Part of me wonders how ANYbody figured it out though - I don't think in a million years it would have dawned on me to step outside the crucible and be objective about it - it's so relentless and ever-present and when you grow up in it, it just completely engulfs you! Whew - anyway, thanks again for the advice, whatisnormal - I'm going to slow down and regroup before I do anything!

Dealing with a Narcissistic Mother - Blog Entry

10 May 2009 11:51 PM

Oh dear - I feel like a sheepish defector and I haven't done anything YET - but my mother called and left me a message saying Happy Mother's Day and saying she loved me and wishes I could have been with my hubby & sons who took her out to lunch today.

Anyway, she'll prob. be furious that I didn't call her back (and prob. won't tomorrow) but I'm thinking of sending her this letter and giving "limits" at least one try (I wrote before asking for them and she threw a massive hissy fit and I've been NC since then - Feb.). Anyway, what do you guys think -- being the massive pleaser/worrier, I feel I have to do something tomorrow -- either get this in the mail by 6pm or call, for fear of being rude (yeah I know - told ya I was a massive WIMP!!!). Anyway here it is:

"I appreciate your friendly message on Mother's Day - thank you! And I hope you had a happy day, as well. I'm sorry but I'm just not ready to handle this situation in a phone call or visit. I'm still trying to work through it. I know it's rude and I'm sorry about that, but I'm very fragile right now.

There has to be a change in the "power ratios" of our relationship. I feel that you have often bullied me and won't take 'no' for an answer to any request without a fight or a tantrum, and I just can't handle the stress of it. I don't feel that I should have to do everything I'm ordered to do - or that I should have to argue to defend my right to disagree with you.

I think I was on the right track in demanding "limits" and "boundaries" - and to establish clear calm ways of deciding what I am willing to do without having to fight about it. It's what I've learned in talking to the psychologist, reading many books and online stuff.

Why isn't it enough? You told [my husband] you thought I'd be upset if [my 20-y-o son] did such a thing to me. I promise you I WOULDN'T. I would immediately be willing to consider that I had been unreasonable, had hurt and upset him, and I would be anxious to make his life better. I'd be hopeful that he would still be willing to let me be a part of his life, on HIS terms, whatever they were.

This is just what I need, for the sake of my health and my stress level - I need a feeling of control over my life - and I believe I deserve to have that. And so, before we move forward in any way, I need you to tell me if you're willing to go along with:

One get-together a month, at my house.

And one other thing per month, that you ask for at least a day ahead - a restaurant dinner, a chauffeuring to something, a concert, whatever -- that I have time to consider over night - and get back to you the next day with my decision, which might include an alternative suggestion or even a refusal.

I have hardly any energy, and I think this amount is about right for me to maintain my health and peace of mind. I also can't handle confrontations or having to make on-the-spot decisions - I panic, get upset, spend sleepless nights afterwards, etc.

Maybe we can resume a relationship, IF the stress can be reduced, and it just can't be reduced if I don't have a sense of CONTROL over my life.

Do take care - I wish you well - and I look forward to hearing your response."

I promise to check back in before mailing, in case anyone wants to advise me! (I'm also having my husband and two sons give their opinions first)

Dealing with a Narcissistic Mother - Blog Entry

10 May 2009 12:49 PM

Have we all made it through Mother's Day pretty much intact? Whewwww - I'd love to hear how some of you have handled it!

Thanks, self! You are SO sweet. I do hope you'll let us know how it turns out with your mom, esp. the PoA situation. Please take care of yourself as you walk over eggshells (or maybe I should say glass shards) as you try to cope with this mess. It wouldn't be easy for ANYBODY!

And psych! Reading what you said made me remember the shock of recognition when I first read this from Joanna Ashmun's site - from the "Traits" section (and also reminded me of her "Now We Are 6" essay):

"The most telling thing that narcissists do is contradict themselves. They will do this virtually in the same sentence, without even stopping to take a breath. It can be trivial (e.g., about what they want for lunch) or it can be serious (e.g., about whether or not they love you). When you ask them which one they mean, they'll deny ever saying the first one..."

Sometimes I think it sounds like NPD is a form of mental retardation, that includes emotional/moral retardation, where they just stopped developing somewhere between ages 3 and 6, and just aren't capable of advancing any further! (this is just me wondering, not diagnosing or anything - I just stand in AWE at all the things that others have figured out and lovingly shared with us fellow victims.) Nothing on earth could ever have helped me as much as the explanations and advice I've gotten from Beth and all of you here, and the others online and in books. We truly live in a lucky time!! Imagine the millions of other victims who NEVER had a chance to get an inkling that it wasn't their fault but it was their mother's!! (or father's or spouse's or sibling's or boss's, etc)

Dealing with a Narcissistic Mother - Blog Entry

08 May 2009 07:36 PM

CBREEZE -- Your daughter and the cruise!! Oh my what a mess. When I read your mother wanted extra payment for being a nanny - I thought, there's an N for you! - always greedy & looking for an angle to take advantage of. You know what? I think your mother should pay those young vibrant fun teen girls (assuming your daughter took a friend) for being wonderful COMPANIONS for a boring old lady on a cruise. Sheesh! And I think you're right to follow your instincts and not let her go, to be all alone with your NM on a ship - it's hard enough to get along with NICE people when you're together too much :) Oh, and your arguing back and her having a fit (about picking the day for the passport) reminds me SO much of my NM. I read that when they do that (or when they resort to name-calling and put-downs), you're actually getting to them!, but it's hard to take any solace from that when you're on the receiving end. I wish you COURAGE and STRENGTH in standing up to her - it's the right thing for YOU and your family, even when it's hard, imo.

KELDUB and WHATISNORMAL -- your points really RANG OUT for me about NM's giving you things but making such a ludicrously HUGE deal about it! The book "Emotional Vampires" has the quote: "Beware of vampires bearing gifts. They usually have big sticky strings attached." My mom is always very loudly/ostentatiously giving gifts and "favors" - wanting HUGE amounts of notice and gratitude, and then later, PAYBACK. She can catalog nearly every gift I've ever gotten from her (and she exaggerates them as well!) She often asks for things BACK. It's ridiculous! Anyway, needless to say, it's a way for her to say, "YOU OWE ME!" and thus, another way to CONTROL, imo.

KELDUB: I'm an only child too, and in some ways it's harder - but then, I don't have to face rejection from a sib who sides w/mom - and in my case, my mom isolated me so much from her whole family, I'm not really losing anybody else with NC, so there's one silver lining. Hope you have some, too! And about the envy! Oh mercy - whenever a person shows up, I swear my mom studies them for something to envy - then it's some snide comment later, "She was really showing off with that designer suit and fancy jewelry - she thinks she's better than everybody!" (and I'm always like, HUH? That lady was sweet!) etc etc. -- Oh another way I'm lucky, my gran was a wimp and my mom bullied her, just like me, and even convinced her to disinherit her sibs!! But having no dad or sibs, I'm so grateful for my gran as she's the only person who loved me growing up - but I can't imagine seeing this going back generations. I'm happy for all you who had loving dads and other close family members - but at least I had a loving grandma. Where would we have been with NO ONE to offer unconditional acceptance/love ??

FRASER - I'm so sorry for all you've gone through. I think a lot of us here can identify. I still have anger and rage crop up, I can't imagine it ever completely going away - but maybe I need it to stay FIRM about taking my life back! When it acts up, I hit the books and this site and others like it especially hard, and it eases up for a while. Good luck!!

PSYCH2B - I love your point about NM's seeing daughters esp. as extensions, and only sometimes granddaughters. My sons, 20 and 17, I think are probably home-free, esp. as they always tell me that they can't really have a conversation with my mother - she just can't really LISTEN to anyone. I know I should feel sorry for her, and maybe that'll come, but in the meantime, I think it protects my kids from her - they're young and don't have much inclination or time for sitting around an oldster anyway, and so, I'm lucky in that way. If they were little, her being their only living grandparent, it would have been hard to go NC, but now, I think they can handle it. She was always miles away when they were little, so never an frequent presence - and she had other people in her life so I wasn't the bullseye for her rage. Oh, and I truly think if the parents are on to the grandparents, and can explain what they think is going on (NPD), then the kids have a huge advantage that we didn't have, not knowing what the HELL was going on!

Take care everyone, and look after yourself! You all DO deserve respect and kind treatment from everyone, even your mothers. Everyone does! Good luck!! And thanks for sharing your stories - you've helped me more than you can know.

Dealing with a Narcissistic Mother - Blog Entry

08 May 2009 07:03 PM

Wow - there are so many new posts here and I've been mesmerized by each one. I needed new input - it all helps so much!! - esp. because I've been feeling weird/anxious as NC wears on (since Feb.) I find I'm having nightmares about not doing what people expect of me and then I have to face their disapproval (and my panic)! (not usually my mom in the dreams but other people, who I guess are "stand-ins") I'm always SO relieved to wake up to get free from being laid into for being "a bad person." (so many flash-backs of my mother's rage and manipulative tantrums)

I can't wait for your book, Beth - I've tried very hard to understand your major points about the necessity of grieving and getting past the anger. The conscious part of my brain keeps insisting that no matter the guilt, it's still SO SO much better than the indignant rage and really, the TERROR I've habitually felt when I was in contact w/NM. But it's hard to be a "bad girl" (read = disobedient to my bossy mother) after a lifetime of training. But at this point, I feel I've GOT to take advantage of this one chance to break free - or else give up any chance of a good life ever again - or at least till she dies.

I believe that I am constitutionally INCAPABLE of ever calmly dealing with her, standing up for myself, or working out "limits" with her. I'm pretty much a wimp with EVERYbody and I can never argue back, even when taken obvious advantage of -- but with her?!? It's ridiculous - and it's hopeless. Oh, and I KNOW she can't change. There wasn't another personality there BEFORE the greedy one who'll do anything to get her way - I think she's been this way since toddlerhood and there's no "better nature" under there.

Anyway, I wonder if my persistent wimp-hood comes from being a victim of a bully my whole life? Like in her case, can it even be done to change MY personality from toddlerhood, which is cowering and feeling horrifically ashamed when I don't do exactly what she says, and BE exactly who she wants me to be, lest hailfire and brimstone come flying at me from her face and mouth, and when I was a child, from her slapping my face and legs in rage?

Well, enough self-indulgent pity-potting, for the moment anyway -- I'd like to address everyone's posts but I'll start a new post because this would get ridiculously long otherwise! Speaking to CBreeze's point -- I too feel like an N myself, posting here, always about ME ME ME, and being haughty enough to offer advice when I know I'm not qualified - but otoh, it's so hard for me to not at least TRY to help when I read your posts, even though I know I don't have much to offer!

Dealing with a Narcissistic Mother - Blog Entry

04 May 2009 12:59 AM

Oh self, I do wish you peace and courage in dealing with this thorny issue. I don't know your mother - but with mine, I'd be assuming that she's planning something - perhaps to use the Power of Attorney to ask you to become more involved in her affairs, talking to doctors/lawyers for her, if she's in hospital, being in charge of talking to the doctors to help make decisions, other things I'm sure. You clearly aren't obligated to do anything you don't want to do - but SHE may tell you you are and she may tell everybody she deals with you have PoA and should be brought into the situation.

Is is possible to write a clear, calm letter explaining why you can't do it and suggesting alternatives? One of your brothers? Another relatives - a sister or brother? If she has a lawyer, he could do it?

Your reasons are very practical and good reasons for refusing - but even if they weren't, it's not a legal obligation that you take on this task, and it sounds like there are other candidates, not even as far away as you are.

I think it's ok to be pleasant on Mother's Day and put your refusal in writing, assertively and as politely as possible, perhaps listing your reasons if that would make you feel better. I'll be thinking about you and hoping that it turns out satisfactorily.

But you are right - if you tell her you deserve a life of joy and don't have to be her caretaker, she'll probably rage at the "put down". Still, wouldn't it be nice to be able to CALMLY say something like, "I understand how you feel and I'm sorry your upset, but it's my decision, knowing that I can't cope with the requirements due to time constraints and health consideration. Perhaps Brother would be able to do it?"

I'm sure I could never pull that off myself but I sure wish I could. Maybe someday, at least with hubby at my side, I'll be able to stand up for myself, without anger or crying or melting into the frightened worthless little wimp I've always been with her.

Dealing with a Narcissistic Mother - Blog Entry

23 Apr 2009 10:55 PM

I'm so sorry about what happened to your daughter, CBreeze! I can't help but believe that our children are "safer" because we stopped sweeping everything under a rug.

I found out about NPD several years ago and didn't make any changes WHATSOEVER at the time, so even though I did know, it still took several years to decide to do major. However, without this site and several others, I don't think I would have had the courage to even think about setting limits, let alone NC. It never dawned on me that I had the right, if that makes any sense. Well, that's not really it, because I knew people, even in my own extended family, who'd avoided their parents, even for long stretches.

I think this site and the others and the books made me feel like I could still respect myself and do this. Without them, I would have felt too guilty, feeling I'd broken some sort of taboo and therefore wasn't a good person. The sites and just as important, the comments by fellow victims like YOU and everyone here, made me look upon NC as a reasonable step - almost one that I owed myself, because I have a right to be treated with respect, even by my mother. Kathy Krajco has a section in her book devoted to how you're treating yourself IF you let someone abuse you - and it's just as wrong as if you watch any OTHER human being abused and choose to do nothing. We matter! I think sometimes children of Narcissists get grilled into them so early that they DON'T matter -- it's just so hard to get over that deeply ingrained belief. But what I took from Kathy's book was that you're doing something truly WRONG if you stand aside, so to speak, and watch YOURSELF be abused and mistreated.

Dealing with a Narcissistic Mother - Blog Entry

15 Apr 2009 12:13 PM

I know I go overboard posting here but I just had the weirdest thought which strikes me as maybe an epiphany, at least in my own family.

I read somewhere that they've figured out that shyness is genetic. What if families that have the gene for extreme shyness are more like to have (a) Narcissistic PD, because it's a defense mechanism for a person who tends to embarrassment and shame; and (b) Avoidant PD, because, well, it's another way of dealing with the same extreme trait?

Dealing with a Narcissistic Mother - Blog Entry

15 Apr 2009 11:55 AM

That is so fascinating, Psych! I'm going to think about that. I'm embarrassingly "open" and find it almost unbearable to be criticized unless I've "owned" whatever the issue is.

My mom is the opposite. She lies and pretends constantly, and she gets furious if she's criticized. Well, we both do, but I hide it and after the anger fades, I feel ashamed and tend to believe whatever the criticism was, no matter what. She DENIES what the criticism was, no matter what.

It's like being around her taught me to be like her (be oversensitive) and yet respond in an opposite way (acceptance and deep shame - vs. complete denial.)

But yes yes yes on being FIRST to admit a flaw or fault, to prevent the agony of being criticized or disapproved of. That fear makes me avoid a lot of things to (does NPD bring about Avoidant Personality Disorder in relatives? Both me and my mom's younger brother and older sister seem to have Avoidant PD which almost seems like the opposite side of the coin? Oh, and my grandmother (my mother's mother) had that as well - plus she could never say "no" to my mom or to anyone.

Dealing with a Narcissistic Mother - Blog Entry

14 Apr 2009 11:39 PM

Thank you so much, selfresponsible & whatisnormal - you've made me feel so good! And it's such a relief to be told, Beth, that's it's OFTEN the case that you can't figure out the nightmare you've been in all your life till many years later! It makes me feel less stupid about all this.

And I've spent so much time thinking about your question, Psychologist2B - and thanks for sharing your story, btw!! Anyway, I honestly think I'm such a total spineless WIMP that staying in contact with my NP would never work. I freeze, I stutter, I feel my blood pressure rising, but I can never manage to deal with confrontation - and my mother thrives on it; she's never more happy or more alive than when she's in a fight.

And so, I really think NC is the only solution for me. I'm trying so hard to understand what Beth says about the guilt and grief and stuff being terrible - and I do feel some guilt, but for me, I think it's mostly terror and embarrassment really - terror that I'll run into her again and embarrassment that someone will put me on the spot about the NC. I don't think it's right to "spill my guts" but I'm such an addict about getting people's approval, that I'm not sure I can stay calm and vague.

But you know, to me, that's NOTHING compared to the constant rage from being in near daily contact. Maybe time will change my mind, but right now, I believe the unsolved issues down inside me are things I can deal with - and in a way, I almost relish thinking about them because I've got 50+ years to sort of detach from and look at from a more objective, less emotional, "safe" place, and it feels so so GOOD to feel I've figured it out and escaped.

Being treated like dirt, and talked to like I was the lowliest most disgusting slave in the world, and having to look in my mother's face and see her contempt for me -- I just don't think I could EVER go back to that now that I've mostly figured out that it's not my fault and I don't deserve it. Whewwwww!

But I do look forward to hearing how things go for you in your attempt to come to terms with your mother without going "NC." Take care of yourself -- everybody! As Beth says, you are never stuck, not with all the help there is now, from her, here and elsewhere online, and in books and things, help that there never was before! We're all very lucky, actually. Generations before us didn't have all this, and my heart goes out to them.