Grizelda's comments

Dealing with a Narcissistic Mother - Blog Entry

08 Apr 2009 10:13 PM

Wow, again I'm impressed at what a good person you are, whatisnormal. I think since learning about NPD and the astounding number of ways my mother's behavior matches the descriptions of NPD behavior in so many blogs, books, victim comments, etc., -- I am MORE ticked off !! I think all my life I kept trying to blame myself and excuse her -- but finding out it really WAS her, all along, well, the floodgates have opened up for me, with all the repressed hurt, anger and rage of my 53 years pouring out. Whew!

I did want to relate a very special and wonderful thing that happened to me last week. It was my husband's birthday and N-mom called him to arrange a dinner date with him and my two sons. Of course, I skipped it, having gone NC in Feb.

Anyway, after the dinner, I was talking to my older son, 20, and telling him I felt bad that he was caught in the middle of this mess and hated that he had to feel uncomfortable. He interrupted me and said, "Mom, please don't apologize. I think you did exactly what you should have done. Absolutely!" (This son had noticed the ugly way my mother talked to me and had mentioned it years before, much to my amazement! - I really thought no one ever "heard" it that way but me.)

Later, I called a good friend of mine and told her what my son had said. It turned out her mother had been bullied (by her mother's mother) and my friend said that she and her sisters had suffered a lot of pain, watching their mother be tortured. She said she wished her mother could have stood up to her own mother, but she died, having never done so, and that broke her heart.

I can't tell you what that meant to me. All the counseling in the world couldn't match the, well, I don't know the word -- exoneration? I felt so validated and more at peace than I've felt at any point during this nightmare. I hope everyone here finds PEACE in their struggle with NPD - I can't remember the source of this old adage, but I love it: "As long as you live, you must keep on learning HOW to live." It's never too late to reclaim your life and make it better.

Dealing with a Narcissistic Mother - Blog Entry

02 Apr 2009 04:50 PM

I don't want to show-boat on here too much, but I especially wanted to respond to your post, whatisnormal. First, I'm really touched by your compassion and concern about your NMom - you must be a very good person.

The second thing that I wanted to address was your point about what to tell other people. When I first decided to go NC, I wrote an essay and decided I would keep it in my purse at all times, and if "put on the spot" I would pull out my essay to explain myself. There were numerous versions of the thing, accompanied by a sort of vague background nervousness about how it would when I finally had to "explain."

I keep going through adjustments to my plan, but last night I was thinking that it would be extremely poor form for me to be sharing details of my personal life with anyone that I wasn't extremely close to, like my nuclear family and a handful of very long term friends, who already know some of the story from knowing me for decades.

What I want now is the courage to say that my mother and I have issues that I'm not comfortable talking about but I decided not to have contact with her. Whew! (now can this "plan" work.) What I really want to do is move a long way away where there's no chance I'll run into mutual acquaintances and connections and therefore I won't have worry that I'll have to "explain" the situation to someone, like an assisted-living worker or administrator, etc. I just want all this to go away (like I have) -- but one step at a time. Every day I become more sure that I've done the right thing with NC -- and whatever I have to endure, even public censure, well, it's better than the hell I was in.

Dealing with a Narcissistic Mother - Blog Entry

02 Apr 2009 01:00 AM

I feel guilty CBreeze that I didn't try to help you, other than quoting other people. But I think Joanna's comment that the only useful advice she ever got was get out and stay out.

It's hard!! I've done it, and I'm an only child myself. Though for me, my mother's alienated or never gotten close to anybody in her family -- and she kept me isolated from them so I hardly know them -- so perhaps I have an easier row to hoe than most people.

But if you must, "divorce" multiple people in your family - and make your life SAFE for you and your children. I hope that's possible for you -- I realize there are financial concerns and just all sorts of other issues that get in people's way and they simply can't do it. In that case, you really REALLY have my heart. Sam Vaknin says mimic the Narcissist and you'll scare them (if they yell, yell back; if they criticize, criticize back...) That is, if you can't get away from them, which is always always the best advice, I think. Or figure out how to distance yourself from this person and just look at them as a guinea pig in a weird science experiment (isn't that your advice, Beth?) Oh I've read so much it runs together, but perhaps you can distance your mind and feelings from her even if you can't distance your body.

What I've had to do is dig deep - and get determined to find some COURAGE. I'm a wimp who can't handle confrontation to save my life! One trick before 'no contact' I tried was to keep a notebook very near and when my NMom said hurtful things, I'd immediately write them down -- so I could bring them up to her later, if need be. Not that ever had the courage to do that. Oh, another trick, when a hurtful thing is said, say "What did you say? I want to make sure I understand what you said?" And then get your notebook and write it down -- and that might make her curtail the hurtful comments? (I never managed that either!) I just had to leave. I had come to a point where I had to run or die, so I went No Contact, but again, I understand that not everyone can. And I shouldn't be "counseling" here anyway -- that's Beth job that she does so beautifully. But I couldn't go to sleep thinking about your post and predicament and wanted to at least TRY to help! God Bless You!

Dealing with a Narcissistic Mother - Blog Entry

02 Apr 2009 12:47 AM

I'm thrilled to hear about your book, Beth - and I'll be sure to get it as soon as possible! And thank you and selfresponsible for the reassurance. And to dear CBreeze - please know that many of us here DO CARE and we DO HEAR YOU and we WANT to hear your story and your experience and we wish you all the luck in the world (though I think sometimes we just have to MAKE our own luck.)

There's a passage in Joanna Ashmun's writings (in the "Aftermath" section) that I return to often:

"This stuff is hard to talk about in the first place because it's weird, shameful, and horrifying, and then insult is added to injury when we're dismissed as overreacting (how many times have we heard "You're just too sensitive"?), deluded or malicious, as inventing stories, exaggerating, imagining things, misinterpreting -- it goes on and on. The fact is that there is next to nothing anyone can do to modify a narcissist's behavior and the only useful advice I ever got (first from my non-narcissistic parent, later repeated by my Jungian analyst) was 'Get out and stay out.'"

Haven't we all been there? Where do you BEGIN to try to explain to someone who's never been in the nightmare we're in? Even some therapists just cannot relate - because it's, well, as Joanna said, practically unfathomable, even by those of us who've lived it every day of our lives.

But another quote helps sustain me from Anna Valerious' blog -- actually it's a post by someone responding to Anna, and paying tribute to her, in the comments to her Thanksgiving essay:

"I love your blog, and I feel so sad for the little girl that you were that had to deal with so much. You seem like such a strong and good person, so I guess it's true that through fire the finest steel is tempered. You've been forged in the fires of Hades - a toxic and evil mother - and come out the other side a stronger person."

Those of us who've lived through this, and still have the capacity to trust and to love, who still want to live life without hurting other people, well, I think that's practically a miracle and we need to stop and honor ourselves and LOVE ourselves, even when there's no one else around to do it. And if we ARE lucky enough to have found people to love and who love us, then maybe we should even be at least a teensy bit grateful for our experiences because they make us perhaps just that little bit more GRATEFUL than most people, because we know how precious love and compassion are -- and we'll never take either for granted, coming from ANY one in our lives, and there's a precious gift indeed.

Please have courage and hope, everyone. There's always something good to be found in life, if we stand up for ourselves and move forward with hope and with love for people who deserve it (and that's most people!) Never give up because it's worth fighting for! And if are courageous and lucky and get free and move on with a peaceful, loving heart, it's a very sweet reward indeed!

Dealing with a Narcissistic Mother - Blog Entry

14 Mar 2009 06:58 PM

Well, you can't click on my links but if you copy and paste them (or just type them in that big box thing at the top of the screen - I have no idea what it's called, lol) they work - at least they did on my computer.

So many pieces have come together for - all due to these brave wonderful people - including Beth! I would never ever EVER had the courage to even think I had the "right" to go No Contact had I not read that very advice, from multiple sources, that sounded so intelligent and professional and objective. Never. So I'll spend the rest of my life feeling grateful about that!

And I wish YOU well, selfresponsible! Isn't it a precious GIFT that people have figured this syndrome, this almost unbearable situation out! My first epiphany was Sam Vaknin's book! It costs a fortune at Amazon ($50!) but I think he's absolutely brilliant and I think the EARLIEST person who really really GOT this and explained it. I will never forget reading that book in 2005 and for the first time, seeing my past for what it was -- abusive. I figured I was just a mess due to the isolation and no daddy or sibs etc etc... It was HER. I think I've even figured out why she was like she is -- HER mother could never say no. Not to her, not to me, not to anyone I don't think. I'm tending to think THAT's where this mess comes from. There were two bullies in my son's preschool and elem. school classes and I got to know both their mothers -- and their mothers could not admit their sons were ever WRONG. I was at a soccer game once and watched one of these mothers WATCH her son push my son down! (My son was 4 and he wasn't hurt at all -- but what was so fascinating was the mother clearly wasn't about to do anything! Had my son done that I'd have been appalled and also very worried about him, not to mention his victim -- when you go around pushing other boys down just because it's fun and you can, one of these days, a kid's gonna get his revenge by beating you up!) I also read about Narcissist Peter Sellers and his mother who was extremely coddling.)

Well, I've digressed -- and I've been kicking myself for "spilling my guts" so much on this board -- it's the only one I've ever posted about this subject, and I really believe, that in the space of two months, I've hit rock bottom and I have a resolution. It's funny that the worst thing I did was write a letter, tell my mother that because of her tantrums, I needed a day to think about all her future requests (oh and limit other visits.) Her furious reactions and medical crisis have backed me into a corner, which I think is what she intended - but perhaps what she didn't intend is that now she's forced me to go "no contact." I'm sure not facing her NOW, when before, of course I would have considered trying the limits since they were MY idea.

I promise not to be so self-centered, well narcissistic (yikes!) myself on this board in the future -- but I'm eternally grateful to you, self, and all the posters here, and especially to Beth and the other bloggers/writers I've mentioned. BTW, Kathy Krajco's blog is:

http://abusesanctuary.blogspot.com

Sheesh, I hope I'm not breaking any rules by posting all these links -- and I'll be keeping up with you, self, and with everybody -- and not running on and on and on at the mouth in future. I really think the hardest part is behind me -- and the most important part, by far, was just REALIZING what the hell was going on!

Dealing with a Narcissistic Mother - Blog Entry

14 Mar 2009 06:38 PM

Here are a couple links and I hope they work, Self! I'll come back to answer your post after I post these links and try them to see if they work:

http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/

http://narcissists-suck.blogspot.com/

Dealing with a Narcissistic Mother - Blog Entry

11 Mar 2009 12:06 AM

I didn't explain myself very well -- my mother got $150,000 from both my stepfather's insurance and her retirement package -- and she made a HUGE deal about GIVING us $10,000 to help with our new son (just turned 2.) And when I sent her the "limits" letter, the first thing she did was demand the gift back -- disinheriting me from my stepfather completely but so what I guess -- he did leave it all to her. As an aside, my mother had 4 siblings - was angry at 3 of them for not helping her mother as much as she says they should have - so mom forced grandma to disinherit the 3 sibs my mom hated! And grandma did it! Same grandma who watched my mom hit me for nothing -- for being clumsy or something - and she just hung her head down and didn't criticize mom. I actually think that's WHY my mom is an NPD, because HER mum could never say NO to anyone. (I was reading about Peter Sellers, supposedly an NPD, and his mother coddled him as well -- I think that's a far more likely cause than trauma in childhood as Vaknin believes, but I guess two people is not much to go on -- but I've known a handful of playground bullies whose mothers could never discipline so I still think it may be the cause.)

Dealing with a Narcissistic Mother - Blog Entry

10 Mar 2009 11:55 PM

I hope Beth is able to answer your post, standingintheshadow, but even just reading over all her blogs and answers to other people has helped me so much. My problems with my N-mom reared their head again with the birth of my first son - it's like she felt determined to 'take over' and claim at least partial ownership of him. My mother had been overbearing and somewhat physically abusive (she slapped me a lot - it took me years to realize that being slapped as hard as she could manage for mistakes like dropping a glass of milk IS abuse -- I guess I thought you had to have broken bones and end up in hospital) but I'm off subject.

She didn't really bully me from when I left home for good at 17 (to go to college) till my first son (1989) and there have been countless arguments since. If he coughed while she visited, it was something I had done wrong - or hadn't done. I didn't keep him warm enough, didn't take him to the doctor often enough - oh I don't know, always blaming me. She was furious that I wouldn't put him in those hard shoes toddlers wore in the 1950s and she'd NEVER look at a modern book of baby-care - she just *knew* everything somehow, certainly more than stupid me - and I'm an only child who lived with her grandmother till 6 - honestly, my mother with no college would be barking orders at a brain surgeon during the surgery if she could get in there. Oh dear, I'm an extremely poor substitute for Beth!!

Anyway, recently my mom moved to our city and lives in an Assisted Living and I just thought it was bad before, when she made her occasional visit to point out all my maternal failings. Now, not only can I never disagree with her, but as her age and health are bothering her, she's hypochondriac and just lives to dream up frivolous things for me to do - just to maintain her 'power' I guess. Not as much fussing about my boys but more general griping about everything and trying to take my time and suck up my life's energy. It wouldn't be as bad if I didn't have a 16-year-old son who's got several handicaps (he was a 1 lb. 12 oz./792 gram "micropreemie" with low vision, low motor ability - we're still working with buttoning and tying, somewhat garbled speech, just a whole list of issues.) Just as I'm struggling with him, as his friends start driving and getting girlfriends etc. and he's still stuck at home feeling hopeless -- then she decides she'll learn to play bridge (and I'm to take her twice a week), and she needs an extra hair salon appointment (they only do her hair once at AL), and we should get her to church and then pick her up every Sunday and bring her to our house for dinner, --- oh it goes on and on.

She throws tantrums when I say anything other than "Yes, Ma'am" with a salute, even when her junk is just for her FUN and I need the time to do homeschooling and walks (my son would get no exercise at ALL if I didn't do it with him) -- oh I never know how to be concise enough, so I apologize for all the details, but I decided I couldn't go on living in a vice -- with her barked commands and then tantrums if I didn't immediately drop everything and comply -- and on the other side -- I'm so worried about my son and trying to figure out how to help him transition to adulthood with his multitude of challgenges, physical, social, and educational. Sometimes she seems to care about him - but she has this uncanny ability to just not think about him when SHE wants something - and interrupting our work 3 times a week is NOTHING, not when SHE wants something.

Short story has been made waaaaay too long but I sent her a list of "limits" -- 1 dinner w/our family per month -- and one other time, she could ask me for a favor (take her to a bridge game or something). [the AL takes them shopping, to restaurants monthly, has bingo games, takes them to church, etc, there's a reg nurse there 24hrs, all meals, it's really great] Anyway, after my letter, she went ballistic! In 1991 when my stepfather died, she gave us $10,000 of her $150,000 insurance plus her retirement settlement -- and she brought that up and said in a nasty way, "Since you have it so great and I'm over here pinching pennies, you should pay that money back!" Hubby and I both CLEARLY remember it was a gift. She ranted and railed like my asking for limits was the most horrible thing a human can do.

I decided "No Contact." THEN she went to her doctor and I think she even asked for a re-catheterization of her heart and a new stent! I can't know that but the week AFTER he told her he'd redo it, the was playing bridge twice that week. I thought surely she's grandstanding or just asked for the newer drug-eluding kind because she could force me back to being her slave. Well, I didn't go. She hired LPNs to sit with her and hubby handled a few details - and gave his number to doctors/nurses. Now I feel horrible but I swear I think she did this on purpose - as the next step after demanding the "gift" back. I feel like Max von Sydow's character in 7th Seal playing chess with the devil! (well he played with Death) but my nightmare game feels like it's with the devil.

She'll win I guess, after badmouthing, shaming me to everyone in a 100-mile radius (luckily I'm mostly a recluse but sheesh, the first time in my pitiful life I actually try to stand up for myself and she comes up w/a health emergency right after having all her checkups and being fine in December!

Well,I haven't helped you much -- but reading like crazy from Beth, "Anna Valerious" (which has helped me so much!), Kathy Krajco (ditto), Joanna Ashmun ('Now We are 6' and her other essays) -- HAS helped me, and I even think I'll be able to stay on track but I'm terrified now. Terrified that I'll have to face her again since the limits letter, the rejection, and then demand for a money gift to be returned!, and then the damned heart "emergency" -- I think she's going to defeat me, but I'm trying to stand firm, and IF she somehow does win, I swear I'll never act like a little downtrodden kitten around her again. I'm tired of using PRECIOUS energy that my disabled son needs so badly on her whimsical damned hair appointments and bridge games.

And I still have hope for No Contact. If you haven't, please consider reading those ladies blogs, especially Anna Valerious. She's got one on "deathbeds and funerals" - saying you should stand fast if you go NC even then! Everybody's case is different, but if your husband is on your side, and esp. in your case, your mom is so far (ours is in the same town!), you might could pull off clear, stringent limits - and enforce them no matter how much screaming ensued. And if that blew up in your face, like in my case, there's a whole lot of "No Contact" advice in the blogs too. GOOD LUCK! Please keep us updated! And maybe Beth can get back to us -- I hope nothing bad has happened to her -- with all the fire/flooding issues in Oz of late! We love you Beth and we MISS YOU!

Dealing with a Narcissistic Mother - Blog Entry

02 Mar 2009 02:20 AM

Sorry, selfresponsible! That stuff about the brother was from the quote by the anonymous poster who explained the difference between power of attorney and legal guardianship. I should have removed that part of his/her post but I didn't think to do it -- I just put the whole post there. Somebody's brother had told them if they didn't take their mother (and pick her up at the airport), that he'd call the police on them, even though he'd never asked permission to send her.

Escaping the Trap of the Narcissistic Mother - Blog Entry

01 Mar 2009 02:58 AM

Oh my - that's the dearest sweetest post, Snowberry! Thanks so much - and I'm sorry I didn't check this thread sooner! I made an extremely wordy post today on another of Beth's threads:

ttp://mental-health.families.com/blog/dealing-with-a-narcissistic-mother

My mother is HOPPING!!! furious to me -- and kept saying to my husband who visited her, "What is her son did this to her ?!?!?!? saying she had to make a request and wait till the next day....."

Well, I swear on everthing I hold dear that I would immediately assume that I had hurt him -- even if I wasn't clear how -- and I would apologize for what I'd done, ask for more details about it, and ESPECIALLY agree to do as he asked and be thrilled he was still willing to be part of my life, despite being hurt -- and I'd ask him to please think of any other suggestions he could make that would make his life better. I love my children and the last thing in the whole world I'd ever want is to make their lives more difficult. I'd much rather just give up being any part of their lives whatsoever, than to keep hurting them! I mean sheesh -- how could you even enjoy being around your child if you can tell they're upset and miserable and afraid... Oh well, it's very late and I'm not thinking clearly.

But I'll never ever forget your kind post - and your wishes and prayers for me! It's fascinating that you think social inhibition/reclusiveness can result from narcissistic abuse! Wow!! My mother's sister and brother are both extremely reclusive, even avoidant. I have some traits of "Avoidant Personality Disorder" though I struggle to force myself to, well, avoid the worst of the syndrome, in order for my husband and children not to be harmed by it. I wonder if my mother could have bullied them so much that it hurt them -- I know she managed to disinherit three of her siblings by forcing my grandmother to write them out of her will (she was jealous of them for -- oh I don't know, not having a lot of divorces like she had, I guess - or maybe just because they were there. She's jealous of most people, it seems.) Well, I've gotten off on a tangent again -- but just venting here tonight has meant the world to me. I think I can go forward not -- and it may mean "no contact" -- that's what I'm tending to think right now and my husband definitely agrees with me! He thinks if any contact needs to be made, he can do it. Thanks again -- and I'll never forget you -- any of you here, who've made an unbearable situation actually start to seem "fixable." (can't think of the right word - I need to get some sleep!)